Russ Irwin

Aerosmith, Sting, Bryan Adams, and a host of other acts…Russ Irwin, singer-songwriter, producer, composer and multi-instrumentalist has worked with all of them. What makes great art?  What does it take and how does it happen? In this episode we chat about jazz, improvisation, influence and ingenuity, and how an artist’s life can change in a flash. http://russirwin.com

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Produced and Edited by Arts and Craft.
Theme Music: Sound Gallery by Dmitry Taras.

Transcript

I think the best artists that's usually what makes them unique in the long run and last you know is that they really just they go to the bottom of the swamp that's where all the best songs are Russ Irwin is a singer songwriter he's a producer composer he has worked with AOS Smith sting Brian Adams meatloaf I'm really happy that you're going to get to meet him can't wait let's do this my name is Nancy Magarill I'm a singer songwriter composer performer graphic and web designer deser and I'm Peter Michael Marino and I'm a writer producer Creator performer and educator we are new york-based artists you may or may not have heard of and we are here to introduce you to other artists you may or may not have heard

 [Music]

I think what's interesting about this experiment that we're doing here called a podcast we are talking to someone who spends a lot lot of time in a studio with headphones on and a microphone and here we are doing exactly that and it's nothing like what you do well yeah it's different it's different to talk as opposed to sing right and for the most part when you're recording in the studio you pretty much already know the material you're going to be singing it's very different than when you're just talking on the fly yes Pete you're much more like that you can improvise a lot I can only improvise I can't I can't do anything that you write and give to me as a jazz musician isn't a tremendous amount of the Performing of jazz improvised yeah you know um improvising in jazz I mean I'm not a jazz musician but I try to be sometimes it's on your bio Russ I did my homework my bio says I'm a jazz piano player no I went to school for jazz piano I did spend one year at the new school studying it but I quickly realized that that was not my calling my calling was really more songwriting but what I have learned about improvising um particularly in jazz is that there's just a lot of rules you know you know they call it improvising but chikia did an article many years ago it was called I think it was called the myth of improvising really all you're doing is taking things that you've already learned and just maybe changing doing variations on it right so if people are really good improvisers which means they can pretty much play what they hear and have the connection go from their brain to their fingers seamlessly it's an amazing thing to do but you have master control over your instrument right and uh I don't have that there was an interview I saw with Paul McCartney and he was talking about how the way they would write songs is they would find a new chord they would see someone play a weird chord and be like what's that we got to put that in a song and that sort of sense of discovery which happens you know to Jazz musicians when they're practicing and they're discovering what new ways to to play It's kind of the same thing except for that rock musicians and songwriters they they do it slowly whereas Jazz musicians Jazz musicians tend to do it on the spot you know I mean I that happens to me if I hear something I like it whether it's a sound a Vibe or chords I'll be like oh [ __ ] I got to write something that has that feel I remember actually Russ I walked into your apartment I think it was for a rehearsal or a writing session and you were like sit down everything has changed you've got to listen to this and it was when Al lannis morette's record came out and you were like this is going to change everything I was a little slow to it I I think I was a little resistant but I was like that when I heard Tori Amos when I heard Sophie be Hawkins there were several people where I heard what they were doing and all of a sudden I was like I I want to do something more like that right I understand you know like when you see something really great you go oh I want to do something like that but that's what they're doing you know that's what that's their way of atanus really did something that I think no one really ever did before she really you know hung her hard out on her sleeve yeah in a way that I don't know if anyone had ever heard a woman be that vulnerable and powerful powerful passionate and extremely honest like just extreme honesty and I think that's what made her so unique but and I think the best artists that's usually what makes them unique in the long run and last you know is that they really just they go to the bottom of the swamp that's where all the best songs are yeah someone once said that to me you know I am a Pandora fan so like I'll just put on like 70s rock and sometimes I'm just astounded at like the the raw honesty and vulnerability that a young man generally right it's mostly men from that that Pandora station are pouring their hearts out and those songs were just on the radio and it's like it amazes from the 70s oh my God yeah just like heartbreak and wanting things and feeling lost in the world and I don't think I'm aware of any anybody writing like that you know now John Mayer he's really extremely unique as a songwriter he really knows how to write great songs and tell really interesting truths you know from a totally different perspective but there's not a lot you're right there's not that many anymore you know I don't really hear songs anymore that make me go wow there's not a lot of Highly intellectual music out there anymore I find we're also not limited just to a radio you know while Dad is driving the car you know or or it's on in the kitchen like we're not limited to you know we had such a smaller window of opportunity to hear what was popular and now we have like a gazillion stations and different ways to listen to all of that yeah it's like it's overload you know now there's so much content you said that um a a great song has you know a great song has that like vulnerability as a great songwriter do you consider yourself like vulnerable like that's extremely yeah that's kind of my thing yeah yep my bet where where did that come from parents Buddhism or that's Howard Jones that's Howard Jones sorry wrong wrong wrong writer I think it came from growing up listening to Great songwriters you know and just loving those kind of songs and wanting to write songs like them like basically the first real songwriter I ever listened to was Billy Joel and he's extremely honest you know especially on his earlier records elton's really honest uh the way he presents himself Billy's really honest sting is pretty honest you know I remember when I made my album get me home which is about 10 years ago me and the producer I was working with he said you got to just tell the truth man you know like you were in therapy just like let it out because I actually when we started recording the album I didn't know it was going to be an album I thought we were just having fun and um it turned out to be an album and I and I wasn't going to play it for anyone either I I plans on not playing it for anyone so I just like told the truth the most darkest truth I've ever told and then all of a sudden I was like okay I'm releasing it you were just going to do a record for yourself yes and never release it and why were you that sad what was going on I was that sad no that's a lot of money I had gone through probably the the hardest period of my life so I was definitely dealing with a lot and then I kind of I lost everything basically in 2008 I lost everything and uh I thought that my career was over and I thought that I would never be able to get back what I had so anyway and then I went on the road in 2009 2010 and those were my two best years and at the end of 2010 my accountant called me up and he said Russ you have no expenses and so uh I was Upstate New York and I with this producer Kenny seagull Who I Really respect and I always wanted to work with him and he was at the show and he said when when am I going to produce your record and I said you know what actually I'll I'll throw five grand at that you know and go up to your house for a week and record and and that's all it was it like I'm just going to go to this house for a week like Elton when he did goodbye elb Road like they all got in a house and they would wake up in the morning and Bernie would write the lyric and pass it to Elton and Elton would by the end of the day they had a song and every day they had a new song and that's what we did we literally did it the same way that El Elton did goodby El road so and I always wanted to do that this that's exactly how I wanted to do my first album that came out nothing like I wanted so there was also a hole in my heart to kind of make the record that I always wanted to make that I didn't get to make when I was 20 because of the big label and the big spending kind of [ __ ] it all up hugely so I got to make the record I I wanted to make but I I wasn't planning on releasing it because for that reason it was I was just doing it for fun and then once I started playing it for people they like that's really cool and then I was like wow I got to now I got to finish it and that's why it became a record but originally no I was not going to play it for anyone that's so cool and was that accountant Bruce P I think it was yeah love Bruce wait wait wait wait so you wrote it and you didn't wanted to get out and then so what happened was as the record kept evolving cuz I took the tracks back to LA and I put them in my studio I started editing them and singing on them and writing the lyrics and I got really into it and then I was like ah man we only got five songs I was like I gotta go back to Kenny's and get five more and all the songs were written in the studio I went back there we did a second session I think we did 14 songs we used 10 but then I kind of knew it was going to be a record and I was like okay I'm going to see it through to the end and then I'll just release it you know and then I had dinner with Bob Donal who's our lawyer another great one I played it for him because at this point once we got towards the end like Steven Tyler sang on it Dean de Leo from stun Pilots played on it Chris bod played on it and I was so into it man I was like waking up in the middle of the night at like 3 in the morning going in to do another mix oh that's the best it was really really amazing an amazing time but uh Bob said to me hey Russ and I never thought about this um it never occurred to me to think this he said you know if you release this and it sucks it's going to hurt your career and I was like really I was like why would anyone care so he said that to me and I was like oh and then he said you know what you want to do is you don't want to get a record label he said you want to get a publicist so he hooked me up with the publicist he said and do videos and promote it on social media and that's what we did and we got a lot of lot of attention that's cool for a lot of different reasons but people really love the record I and I certainly did when was it released 2012 what was going on otherwise around that time I was I was on the road with Aros Smith and actually I thought I finished the record and then I remember we went to Japan and I played one of the songs on bullet train for stepen I'll never forget he like looks at me goes man you forgot that Harmony in the first in the second verse you got to do the harmony about the thing I was like oh man I got to go remix the record the record came out six months later than it should have been just because little things like that you know yeah I was I was working with arol Smith and then going back to make the finish the record and then my record I put it out like right in May I think it was May early May and I made video had a friend who's a producer who helped me make a great video from Manhattan and I had also written Aros Smith's Because Aros Smith was putting out a record like a few months after mine and I and I had written their single for that record what was that that was called what could have been love I'm sure most people who are listening uh know exactly how someone writes a song for Aerosmith but there might be a couple of people that are like how does somebody just write a song for Aeros Smith could you help bring that person you know up to speed I've written a lot of songs for a lot of different artists and they always happen in a different way sometimes you know when you have an artist like I I wrote a song for for example for for Foreigner and I was working with uh Marty Frederickson who's a producer and a songwriter he's he produces Aros Smith and uh my friend Oliver Liber who's a great songwriter producer and Marty walked in and said hey got got any ideas for a foreigner right and we just sat around for hours like going trying you know whatever you know just ideas throwing them out throwing them out and and at one point I remember we were going to like quit because we just didn't have any and then I I just like closed my eyes and I was picturing like that Cold's ice intro so I just did something similar to that but in my own way and that became the song that got that went on the record so that's one story of how a song you can specifically write for an artist right um but the Aros like the aosmith song that we wrote just as an example it was the first song that Marty and I ever wrote together and um I went to his house and he said I want to write a country song I was like cool I've never written a country song before and we wrote that song and we wrote it for Tim mcra I think yeah and Mario was like oh man I'm gonna get this to Tim mcra and blah blah blah and then he played it for stepen Tyler and Stephen Tyler was like that's our next single like okay seven years later he finally recorded it so it's it just changes never know yeah I think if you're writing for someone else yeah that's a different process especially if you're collaborating that's a totally different process than as an artist when you sit down and write a song for yourself now that's now that's a totally different animal right that's that's a completely different thing because then you're expressing yourself you're expressing who you are as a person and that takes a lot of therapy you got to like go through life I you know it's funny because like on my album when I was 20 I made an album when I was 20 years old with the big label and a big producer and all the stuff and I had nothing to say man I hadn't been through anything yet yeah you know I really didn't I had a couple I had like an ex-girlfriend you know that's it but you thought you had something to say I not you know actually I don't know I maybe but you know every once in a while you find someone who really has something to say when they're really young I think John Mayer did that I think alonis Morris definitely did that yeah but that's pretty rare you know most people uh it takes him a few albums to to get to that point where they're like really in the zone as a songwriter expressing themselves a lot of my favorite artists they they weren't successful on their first records man they took three or four sometimes Five Billy Joel didn't break until his fifth record you know his first first album was like kind of like eh and a lot of artists don't have that luxury now and no one has that luxury anymore I didn't have that luxury in 1991 they were and they said that I did they were like we're g to stick with you kid and I was like great and then they didn't and he was like see you so did you think when you were younger I'm going into the music business or did you think I'm gonna be a I'm gonna be a songwriter no I was in the music business program at NYU so I I did want to be in the music business I wanted to be a musician professionally but I was a little scared to do it you know because you know it's a scary thing to try to live your life being an artist you know so I did want to have something to fall back on but then I I listened to Tony Robbins Anthony Robbins when I was like when I was 20 years old I did his whole his first course ever tape series or whatever you want to call it called yeah and I listened to it in one weekend and I was like I'm doing it and I mean and I had a record do like 3 months later it was like crazy it was really like creative visualization and manifestation it was really weird oh there's that word again Pete manifestation yeah so yeah did so manifesting did you picture yourself like going on tour and like headlining concerts I got to tell you it was really it was just like it was very second nature and because I had my own band you know I was also playing other people's bands and stuff but as far as my my writing and me being an artist like I having my own band writing the songs for it and leading the band and doing gigs and stuff around New York City I remember I just I just just loved it I don't know it wasn't like I wasn't really picturing myself on stage at Madison Square Garden or anything I just I just knew it was really cool and special you know to me to me I don't know if it was special to anyone else but to me I just felt like it was important to me to do that you know and you felt confident that you could live on that no no no I wasn't confident that I could live on it I was confident that I could do it but I didn't know if I would be able to make a living at it yeah so when you started were you first just playing with your own band and then you started playing with other people in the city like what or was it after your record deal went South that you started playing with other people once I got to New York City I started working professionally that's because I met this guy Greg ersen do you know Greg I know of him I don't know him know him he was Billy Idol's drummer and he also played with jao Pistorius and uh he's a great J drummer and a great Rock drummer but he kind of took me under his wing for a couple of years and he put me on every gig that he was on so I I remember I was like you know I was going to school during the day but at night time I was gigging and rehearsing with all sorts of people for couple of years and then I got a record deal and then I stopped um and then I just focused on the record which ultimately failed I think I'm I'm pretty sure I met you right after the record failed yeah you met me right after you were like one of the first gigs and I wasn't planning on continuing to do music I was I pretty much quit that's when I went to work with you Nancy down on Wall Street remember down on Wall Street no yes I worked with you at City Bank with that guy what's his name Ron Oriana Ron oh my God you worked with me in that's a year my memory sucks for a year a year what did you do I was an assistant just like you Russ is flabbergasted that you don't remember him it's amazing I have there are certain things in my life that I just don't remember it wasn't like that was traumatic or anything I just don't it's like that's so crazy cuz all I remember was that we played together I remember meeting you one night after um I I knew I wanted to play and Jeff Allen had told me about you and or I think I met you and he said that's the guy you should play with or something like that I can't remember and then we started playing together but I don't remember H to having um brought you into that world yeah I I quit music for a while I really like after my record deal fell apart I quit music I don't know if it lasted about a year or something became a bartender for about a year and I I went back to NYU to study business and and then Nancy got me this job on Wall Street and not really I'm not being a Wall Street guy but no no you know just being just paying the bills paying the bills yeah um and I remember I I remember we had played together for I think it was a couple of years oh yeah and I really enjoyed being in your band it was really great I loved I loved it really broke my heart when you left because I just loved playing with you Russ one day said he found out that Aeros Smith was looking for keyboardist well yeah Columbia Records John claud's off called me up and said we were we're looking for a keyboard player who can sing and they said can you be there next week and I was like yeah of course and then I I practiced that whole week and I was really like I was just going to kill it you know and then they called me and said oh we're pushing it back a month oh that's what happened and and I remember I I was pretty disappointed because I was ready to go you know but I had another month to practice and I was programming the sounds and I was sampling stuff and but then I went up there and I did the uh audition and then a couple weeks later I was playing at wimbley my is so crazy it was like boom poof he's gone it was wild it was weird and then it and then my life just became a totally different life it was completely pretty much different that old life ended [Music] yeah give

up I'll be afid

just find the [Music]

light and you'll be saved keep your head up

high it'll pass you by

I did a 2ye and 3month tour with aosmith but I I came back to New York I kept my apartment in New York my $800 apartment loved that apartment I know except it was too loud um was a bar it was really loud but I came back and I I just saved all my money I had no expenses so I came back and then I got a new apartment right around the corner for my old one um and I kind of you know I just kind of took it easy for a little while and then I got this sting call next thing I knew I was putting all my stuff in storage and going on the road for 2 years one year with sting and then another year with aosmith and then I came out here and bought my house and do you like living out in La loaded question man I know you're a native New Yorker is that right yeah um there's you know La is just a weird place I I I the weather is you can't beat it you know if you have a nice place it's hard to get a nice place in New York City unless you're you know Filthy Rich Filthy Rich yeah and I don't like that I didn't like that ever about New York I didn't like it was always hard to struggle you know I love New York but I go back to New York and I feel at home you know La I'm still a stranger you know really totally 22 years later I still don't the people here are just like there's a lot of people here just weird you know they have it's a weird thing weird animal what's a what's a typical day like for Russ Irwin in Los Angeles these days or maybe an atypical day maybe that's maybe that's easier to answer I pretty much wake up every morning around 6 6:30 sometimes and then I go straight to the gym so very La okay continue very La I go to the gym and I put on my headphones and I listen to a book while I'm working out and then I come home and I make my all my vegan food then you know it just depends on what's going on what projects I got going on if I got something musical going on I'll go in the studio or I'll go to somebody's place and um and there's usually something going on I usually have a few projects going on at the same time and in the evenings I don't go out I I'm in bed by 8 7 wow I thought I was you know when I got time I sit at my piano and I just practice practice Jazz usually actually I'm really into playing um modern gospel that's my new thing what where' that come from you know I was just online and heard this guy playing and I was like what is that who was it do you remember his name is Shawn Wilson and he's a teacher online he teaches you how to play Modern gospel piano I love it he's great it's like a totally different language are you going to do a go record you think no I don't think I'm ever going to make a record ever again I don't I don't wait a minute I thought you were just recording didn't you tell me couple weeks ago that you started recording you were working on something well I I mean I was working on like some tracks for like some film companies yeah I'll I'll do stuff like I'll do TV stuff you know a lot of times I get called to do a jingle or just a track for a library or you know they might have something in mind you know so I'll record but I haven't written a song sat down and actually written a song in a long time yeah do you miss it not really you know it's funny because I I've I know that a lot of artists this definitely happened to Billy Joel was he stopped making records in 1992 that was his last record so his career start really well he started in 1971 or two but he really broke through in 78 so he really had 14 years where he was making records that people were going to listen to and he made probably I don't know seven records in that time that's a lot and you kind of run out of things to say sting kind of R ran out of things to say he wasn't really he was just like I think I'm I don't really know what to say anymore you know I think you that that happens when you get older I could be wrong I'm not I I'm not speaking for them but I feel that you know you get older and you're like I don't know tell the world my problems screw that also the younger generation like they say things so differently they have a totally different take on how you know themselves so we can sound dated you well absolutely although there's so much going on right now and maybe that that's kind of where I feel like I have I sort of trust I've always trust as a writer that even when I've dry spells that at some point it's just all going to come out because if it's meant to it will and I do feel like there's so much going on right now in the world that I think it's just like going in and at some point I'm going to find my way to articulate what it is I'm going through in this crazy ass time in the world yeah actually you know okay so I actually was working on a record last year that I came up with an idea for and it was a punk band like a hardcore like pretty hardcore punk band SCA actually kind of like early police and I wrote all these songs but the record was extremely political extremely political and really angry and punk and then I was like oh man this is not this is not a good idea no I mean I love the music but I just wasn't like I felt like you know sometimes it's better to just not say anything well yeah you know that's what I think but then sometimes you have to say something if you want to lose friends man talk about politics well but great music see this is for me what I feel like is lacking right now is that great music inspiring people to either take action or or change the craziness that's going on when we grew up there were a lot of amazing musicians who did that for us and who had you know and that's that's part of what I [ __ ] hate about corporatized music because I think there's so much we've watched that in our lifetime so much music has just been this corporatized pop [ __ ] that it's sort of taken that necessity away and it's so critical that artists who should be the voices of generations are the ones that help lead us through those times and we don't I don't feel like we have anyone like that right now I don't think so you know I don't think kid have anyone like that they have Taylor Swift who I think her music isn't that but she as a person is that which is one of the things I love about her is she's really willing to be political and talk about what she believes in when she's in an interview in inter but she gets people out to vote but she's not doing it in her music and that's okay she's got millions and millions of fans that she's inspiring and so I'm okay with that because I think that's really cool and important too there's no one really putting it in the music you know I'm pretty sure that's happening in rap well it's always happened in rap where they're political though where they're actually talking about politics well I mean how do we Define politics talk about the government like like you know the sexpistol came out and they were like God Save the Queen you know and [ __ ] you know Anarchy in the UK I mean they were like they were really hardcore they were like screw the The Establishment and there's no I don't know anyone who's doing that I don't know anyone now but like the root now is kind of want to do it now is you would want that and that was what I was that was what I was trying to do but that would mean that they would have had to have started the thing a year ago for it to be happening now right like well is an artist going to write a political song today and it's going to be on the airwaves and there's going to be a video and people are going to be affected by it what Airwaves okay there's that there's that so I mean it's a legitimate question like so when you say now like how could it be now you'd have to literally do like a We Are the World which like takes a week to do and comes out a week later right yeah well a lot of people are doing that you know a lot of people are recording very quickly and then they release it quickly you know back when we were doing our thing Nancy I mean you did a few records right I I've put out a few records I've put out a few EPS I think you and I I think you were on my first EP we did a dangerous music right right y um it was you Bob Mark Stewart you know but back back then we would write you know 10 songs and that would take two three years yeah and then you then you'd have to get the money together to record it and that would take a year right and then how do you get people to listen to it I mean like you know you print a bunch of CDs and give them to your friends or record companies that whole process was uh was like took years and now I can do it I've done it in but it is different when it's a a label artist they're not going to put it out in a day when it's someone on a label it's going to be a whole other you never know but they can they don't care as long they don't care how long it takes right they care how good it is because I think that um Billy ish I think she some of her stuff has done pretty quick I'm a big fan of hers I think she's a great voice and I think she's very interesting I love what they do yeah I mean I think the people who really put the work in to make their recordings great and if they're great those are the best records but um you know everyone does their art differently you know what would you do if you weren't doing this like if you were not allowed to be involved in the Arts in any way what would you be doing I'd be a hedphone

manager would you really know how to do that it's okay it's never too late to learn are you asking me like what I what would I do if I wasn't doing music yeah well I don't know man I mean you know I would probably I'd probably have a regular job like what doing probably I probably would have I probably would have been went to business school I probably I would have probably liked to have been an entrepreneur that's probably what I would have done what what do would your interests be if you were an entrepreneur what would you going back I don't know what my younger self would have decided to do I don't know no I'm saying today you're not oh today today you're not allowed you need to do something else what is it going to be I'm not sure Nancy today you're not allowed to be an artist what are you going to I'm kind of unfortunately doing it well no no no because this is part of being an artist but I also I mean I'm I'm making money as a graphic artist and a web designer that's how I make that pay for my existence here on Earth but you know is it what I want to do I I guess if you're asking me what my dream would be I mean the only thing I want to do is music art acting I love the Arts I love creating I am a total creative junkie yeah I would I would have loved to write and direct a movie that was something I that would be cool I would love to do that I still have thought about it um I actually wanted to do a documentary about the whats up show do remember the what's up show oh well so tell tell Pete about the whats up show this was so and the listeners I mean maybe they know tell the listeners about the what's up show oh that's hard it's a hard story to tell because it's we're in and out elator and Steven Spielberg's on the elevator and we have 10 floors to pitch our I do so I I went to NYU with another friend this guy Jason pige who's an amazing artist singer songwriter everything really um actor he's a real talent he super talent and uh so he he had a band um called what's up and they were signed to IMO records the same time that I was signed to S spk records and uh they were like one of myv bands and we got dropped at the same time and we kind of uh commiserated over it he was happy about it I was destroyed and um which was kind of funny because we uh we talked about all that but I remember I said to him you know you can't let the band die man we got to keep what's up alive so I joined the band and we got a new drummer and we kept going but Jason was always filming everything and putting it on public access and he called it the whats up show just to promote the band and I remember I I said to Jason I was like you got to we we got to go see this movie right um we went to go see the first showing ever of um pul fiction and I was like we should do the WhatsApp show like that with those angles and weird and the talking and like weird you know like we should make the WhatsApp show like that so the the WhatsApp show we ended up doing 60 episodes like scored and with I mean wow and it was comedy comedy and music it was comedy and music and it was really like what would have been on YouTube now it would have been like jackass except we were about 10 years before it but people it went on public access and people loved it and I remember people were coming up to us on the streets all the time but we would go into the streets and we would like create like you know we would we'd walk by a we'd go into a restaurant and then all of a sudden Ben would just like throw up all over the place you know and we'd film it and then we go oh man you know and then they get into a fight and and we'd film it but like you know the people in the restaurant didn't know what the hell was going on we actually were we were just making a skit up you know we would do ridiculous things live you know and we would make them up on the spot and we did that for years it was one of the most creative experiences I've ever done such a great show but um and it was really funny it was really and smart funny um and then we would play music so we would like you know me and J Jason would do jazz standards and stuff so it was like this contrast of like we're really serious musicians but we are totally ridiculous people so but it I I always thought because now that the whole world is basically filming themselves you know putting it online I was like we were doing that in 199 before man I thought it would I thought it would make a good documentary because it was so interesting you know yeah and you were pretty balls to the wall like I remember after um hearing about you when Jeff had told me to play with you and then I somehow stumbled upon what's up on TV and I was like oh my God that's the guy I just met and I'm like and I watched it and I was so floored by how crazy you guys were and crazy and runchy and just I mean it was something I'd never seen before and I was like I have got to work with this guy I was like I that it was I was like I can't you when you see someone like you it's like I need to work with this it was like how I felt when I saw Mark Stewart play and he introduced me to downtown you know the whole downtown scene I was like I have to play with this guy because you know and I was totally intimidated but I was like I knew I needed to learn from you guys you know yeah and it was it was really cool I would love to see a documentary of that that does he have all the episodes we've gone through them and there's reason why some of the other guys don't want that stuff released now because they have families and stuff but just kind of funny because I wanted to make it I was ready to do it I was like let's go get the other guys and we'll interview and like we'll put the best stuff together and wait who has a family Tommy or Tommy and Ben Tommy and Ben have families oh yeah oh my God yeah that's just hard to fath yeah oh God Pete what about you what about what about you if you could if you could do anything else yeah you get to answer that get that question um I would like to um I would like to work on like learning how to do like people who work with like public spaces who like figure out like you know where a park should be and like where the entrances are and like architectural design yeah I don't know if that's the right word it's like um landscape design it's not really landscape it's like uh City Planning City Planning yeah you'd want to do City Planning interesting yeah yeah I would want to do that I think I would want that would not have been anything I would have thought was going to come out of your mouth oh well that's why the question is what would you do if you were not doing so if I was not doing this like City Planning would be awesome I wish I knew how to do that uh I would like to somehow work in color theory although that is somewhat artistic stick um but like um uh I'm just really obsessed with colors and I like colors so I feel like there's probably a job that I could do with that other than like when my friends are like I need you to help me pick out my living room you know I mean I guess if I could be a scientist I would love to be a scientist if we're talking about like things that anything if you could have been or a ballet dancer I would have loved to have been a ballet dancer not something at this point in my life I think I would take up but I mean I think there are many things that had I had I had a different education as a child maybe I would have thought about that I think you get older you're kind of like I am what I am I just want to be H I just want to be happy on the way out man right and go quickly when I do [Music]

yeah you may have me all the time you may never go my way Mother Earth is laying for you there's a death you got to pay I don't care how great you are I don't care what your

worth when it all ends up you got to go back to Mother Earth [Music] did you want to be famous not really really no I wasn't that wasn't the goal what do you think about Fame I I've been on the you know on the periphery of that right because I've worked with so many people who are very famous but I'm not famous you know maybe in the industry I am a little bit but I see how it affects people and they change and that can be very difficult um some people for the better some people for the worse and if you want to go down that path you can be choosing a a life of isolation and not really knowing the truth and having people yes you to death and and then you know if you do that for too many years eventually you can kind of go crazy and I've seen it people go nuts so I'm not like but when I was you know younger I wasn't like oh I want to be famous that was definitely not what I was thinking I just wanted to do something that was cool really cool yeah I was signed to a major label when I was 20 and made a record that they spent a lot of M money on and they put the record out and I was on MTV and VH1 and toured the country and did The Tonight Show and I was literally the the song The Single had peaked at around 28 but it was with a bullet it was supposed to go higher the next week right and if it and they were pushing it up the charts with just with money really I was right on the ver right on the verge of you know breaking through and then they came one of the guys came to my show from the label and he said uh we just got up by Ami your record's over so it was like I was like right there and then it was just taken away and I got really depressed my record just ended crazy right um it was supposed to go top 20 and the next thing I knew was just off the charts gone was that that was like literally the moment you thought this is this is the one this is the I was like we just played The Tonight Show and the song was going up the charts and I was like because once you're top 20 you're kind of like then all of a sudden people know who you are yeah of course when we peaked at 28 you know and uh but then there it was over and I got really depressed and blah blah blah and then I you know all this stuff and then it took me years to get back in but but actually and I know I don't think I've ever said this but looking back was probably the best thing because I just would have been really [ __ ] up you know I would have when I was I was too young man I was 23 to become really you know famous and then you know most people don't stay famous you know you're famous for a few years and then what do you do you know so I I do look at the time I didn't I I was it was horrible you know it was a very hard experience but looking back it was probably better for me you know as a person what is success mean to you me what was it mean to me yeah Oh I thought that was the answer me Su I was like okay that makes sense I think of you as successful thanks I mean I am successful in some ways and not successful in others you know um you know I success can be writing a great song it can be recording something that's great and being proud of it success can be getting a big gig and making lots of money you know you know what is what is it like to be a failure I've had plenty of that too I've just as much probably more I don't know s i maybe success is like when you look back on your whole career and you go I'm proud of that that's probably a good measure of success you know I think yeah a lot of people in La they never do anything they're like I'm so successful though but I'm so successful I'm like what have you ever done nothing at least they're consistent New York like everybody was super real you know we were all doing our thing it was really right remember I think we still are there was an auth authenticity that was very genuine you know I think so though I think it's changed I think I'm sure it's not like that anymore but yeah I I think yes I think there are a lot of great artists and a lot of great people who are authentic I do think I have seen a shift I started seeing it around when I was doing the show the panty party and one of the reasons I wanted to do it I was so excited about it because the goal was to promote new artists it was so much fun the guys would dress up and drag the girls would dress up in in lingerie and you know we had about six to eight different performers every time we did a show and I was so excited because I thought it was just this whole Spirit of all of us really working together to push each other and just this sort of we're in a together Vibe and I saw less and less and less of it as it went on like more people were just more concerned about them being seen and it wasn't part of a being part of a scene and I really would have liked to have known what that was like where people were like I definitely felt that when you were in town playing that there was a scene going on we'd all go hang out we'd all go listen to music together every night we were going supported each other like we all respected each other you know yeah and we would talk it was like it was like very bgea you know like it was and it was it was really cool it was really special and I don't I don't feel that so much anymore in New York we just in general I don't know if I feel it anywhere they might have it in Nashville you know but I don't know I think they still kind of do Pete what do you think do you see I mean we're all like much older than when we were doing that I mean those young people like that are working in like the sketch world or the uh standup comedy world and I guess I guess in some way maybe some music not that I'm aware of but those people are going out there and going each other's gigs and you know sweating it out and playing for three people and they're still all doing that we're just in bed by then we've we' just all agreed to that right yeah actually you know we look at a place like Pangia which is like a cabaret Club in New York we're there you know once every months or something at least was there there like a full supportive community of people who are going to other people's shows and hanging out afterwards supporting the restaurant tipping the waiters so we're we're we're doing that you look at the penny arcades and you know we're all going to Joe's Pub to see her do read off of a you know music stand you know like because we know that she's developing something so I do think those things are happening but we're just not in it so we I do and I do think some of those venues like Pangia you're right Pangia is definitely a venue that Fosters that I'm not so sure of the rock clubs anymore I think the rock clubs started to become a bit different like back in the days of Cafe Chen when it was on 8th Street that's what it was all about but everything's online now too everything's on Tik Tok or you know people are doing [ __ ] people are obviously being creative man because they're doing stuff you know well it's like we started with there's just a lot of content out there there's just almost too much content and now we're adding to the mix all right hey you know what I'm not going to go through my whole freaking life not having a podcast this is like right like that check check check I never ever would have thought about doing a podcast ever no one thought about doing a podcast until 10 years ago no less l that's true I podcast really became cool about five years ago no actually Nancy you know Julian fleser when I was dating him a very long time ago he was like I'm doing a podcast and I was like what even is that he's like it's like a radio show and I'm like who listens to it he's like yeah people it's like you subscribed you subscribed to this thing on the internet and I was just like good luck with that yeah they wer cool at first it took a while for podcasts to well also the pandemic made them even bigger we were all stuck in our homes trying podcasts give people another opportunity to tune everybody out so as much as I don't want to be a person who is you know cont you know Theater now a lot of shows like you wear headphones at the show really where a dinner you dine in the dark you don't see I don't know I feel like I'm contributing a little bit to like shut up and listen to me and my friends for an hour um yeah except this is about exposing people to friends like that's the way I look at this oh that's a good way to look at it yeah I'm this is a service yeah this is a service I want people to hear Russ and hear I think like what Russ has been talking about with what he's gone through and just the whole creative conversation is really interesting I think yeah I agree that we can be well that's a good goal for us Nancy as we set sail on this journey that you know that we are should call the podcast The Zone get in the zone man just have people nanc is right now Googling how many podcasts are called Z believe me it's like every day I'm like how about fried broccoli and she's like someone already has it and I'm like uh how about Hope is without dope and someone has it whatever it is Russ thank you so much for talking to us I hope that you remain for having me remain um um regimented but I also hope that you come to New York every so often and just let your hair down although you do a listener you don't know this but Russ has really great hair

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