Tiffany Chang

On this episode we dive into the pit with Tiffany Chang, an award winning conductor and creator of “Conductor as CEO”, a blog that champions leadership skills for fellow conductors, arts leaders and musicians. Both Tiffany and Pete give us a “look in” at their look in work at the Kennedy Center and we chat about the hierarchy in the opera/classical world and how creativity fits, or doesn’t fit in.

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Taiwanese-American conductor Tiffany Chang garnered recognition through two Solti Foundation U.S. Career Assistance Awards, the OPERA America Grant for Women Stage Directors and Conductors, LIT Talent Awards, and The American Prize in Opera Conducting.  

Tiffany’s been engaged by the Lyric Opera of Chicago,  Washington National Opera, The Dallas Opera, Portland Opera, Minnesota Opera, and Opera Columbus. Her other engagements include BlueWater Chamber Orchestra, OperaHub, College Light Opera Company, Dinosaur Annex New Music Ensemble, Pro Arte Chamber Orchestra of Boston, Brookline Symphony Orchestra, University of Missouri-Kansas City, NEMPAC Opera, among others.

Tiffany optimizes work culture for job satisfaction, promotes psychological safety for musicians, and leverages people-first leadership for artistic excellence. She authors the blog Conductor as CEO and has been an active guest speaker and published contributor for Routledge Press, Leader to Leader, Notes from the Podium, PM World Journal. 

For the first decade of her career, Tiffany revolutionized orchestral programs as a conductor and professor at Oberlin Conservatory, Berklee College of Music, Boston University, and Baldwin Wallace Conservatory.

Visit www.tiffanychang.net for more.

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Produced and Edited by Arts and Craft.
Theme Music: Sound Gallery by Dmitry Taras.

Transcript

if I extend my hand they had to take my hand and and I think that it's in my experience it's really scary for orchestral musicians to feel safe to take that hand when I extend it because there's just so many experiences of not being given the hand to take or having been given that and then having a negative consequence that comes out of that she is an award-winning conductor the creator of conductor as CEO a really cool blog that championships leadership skills for fellow conductors Arts leaders and musicians Pete who are we talking with today today we are talking with Tiffany Chang my name is Nancy Magarill I'm a singer songwriter composer performer graphic and web designer and I'm Peter Michael Marino and I'm a writer producer Creator performer and educator we are new york-based artists you may or may not have heard of and we are here to introduce you to other artists you may or may not have heard of Tiffany we quote unquote met in May of 2023 and that was the first the look in which I believe you were there for yeah yes I believe so but I I don't I'm not sure if we actually met that well this is my point right so we worked on we were in the same room for half a week for laom and then eight months later we were in the same room for Romeo and Juliet and then this time we were in the same room for actually a longer period of time for what the hell oh MCB just happened 5 days ago why would I remember it so my question is why did we never have a conversation until we were at the rail at the Kennedy Center during a break I think I should correct you and saying that I was not a part of Romeo Juliet oh thank God I was not I was not in the room so then I think that that was not an opportunity for us to have had a conversation that's fair and furthermore I'm not sure if I was actually in the room with you for that because you were only involved in in the look in portion yeah wait what is the look in portion we'll talk about that yeah and and and I didn't participate in the in the look in oh okay so I don't feel bad at all yeah so I don't think we actually met until like a week ago whatever that was okay yeah so for the listeners a look in is a thing that the Kennedy Center does with the Washington National Opera every eight months or so whatever show is currently playing they hire me to write a script that's going to educate 2,000 kids between fourth grade and 12th grade in what Opera is and what music is and What that particular Opera is Tiffany is well for the last project was the rehearsal conductor while we were rehearsing what we were doing for this presentation which is I still don't know what look in means it's like looking behind the scenes it's like we're showing parts of like we'll show like uh you know the big letter Arya that lady MC Beth has but beforehand the host will say what we're going to hear next is called an Arya sometimes you'll hear Arya an opera sometimes Duets we're kind of giving them all the terminology and stuff and showing examples of examples from the actual Opera that's currently playing excerpts and who is it for it's for students between fourth grade and 12th so uh it is giving them an introduction to theater and to Opera and to music and to all that stuff it also gives the students a look in into all the other aspects of Opera aside from music like uh how's the stage the set how are how how do they move and the lighting and the costume Orchestra costumes and all of that so it it really is a using musical excerpts and uh Peter script to give the students a tour yes Mak sense yeah and it's quite it's quite an assignment because the whole thing has to last an hour and there's going to be 30 minutes roughly of choices of scenes and and musical moments and then there's going to be 30 minutes of host things audience participation things like where we get the a kid from the audience to conduct the orchestra which by the way she was very good this last week how fun yeah it's super fun so I thought okay so me not knowing that you were not the rehearsal director for the other shows is indicative of my question because I just never talked to anybody because I was in a rehearsal room at the Kennedy Center for an opera oh you're in work mode why why did why why is that what's so weird is that like they have hired me to dis dispel the myth that Opera is some hoyy toyy snobby thing right like the video series I did for them and and literally what I wear when I go to the Opera it's just jeans and a t-shirt is is to is to dispel that myth that Opera is some that is unreachable unattainable and and for certain types of people and I think that I still carry that with me when I am there because I feel a little bit like an outside I am an outsider I'm a musical theater guy everyone's under the gun I see how uh the the the Maestro works with the orchestra under very tight conditions we have something we have to put together and it's different than what you've been playing I see how the stage management uh has to relay a thousand messages and so I feel very guilty and responsible for a lot of these things who does the orchestrations for these pieces Mech Beth was written by ver and so you know this is V's Orchestra um usually if they are reorchestrated they would be paired down for a small pit or a smaller venue not the Kennedy Center exactly although operas can be done with one piano yeah exactly or a piano or two pianos you know I've I've done operas with two pianos two pianos and percussion you know there's all sorts of different orchestrations that could be used for Opera depending on its size and its needs so are these productions being performed at the Kennedy for large audiences and then you're taking a section the look in for students is that what's happening that they're playing simultaneously kind of well this this look in is a selections from the Opera that is a oneoff event and it's an educational event for students so this look in performance happened during the Run on a morning at like 11:00 a.m. morning in between the the shows that we have and it's using the same Orchestra that's been rehearsing the piece now how did you get involved with Kennedy Center and with doing this yeah well I I think this what answers Pete's question um of like what was I doing there uh so uh what the hell were you doing there yes so I I was engaged as a cover conductor for this production of MC Beth and a cover conductor is who is not connecting to Performance per se but is there for the whole duration of the process to cover for the connector uh should there be a need for any rehearsals to be covered any simultaneous conducting situations to be covered and so I'm there for all the rehearsals uh staging music rehearsals I'm there for all the orchestra rehearsals sometimes during the rehearsal process there would be an orchestra rehearsal happening at the same time as a staging rehearsal and so they would need two conductors oh to cover for these two simultaneous rehearsals for the performances if there's any offstage conducting the cover conductor usually would be responsible for that so in McBeth there's significant offstage bonda sequences that I'm responsible for and what I do is I look at a monitor of uh the conductor in the pit conducting and uh I try to coordinate the music that's happening off stage with the music that's happening in the pit so you were busy on this this show so yeah so you know sometimes the cover Conor you know doesn't have any of that responsibility so for a performance if there are none of those responsibilities then I would just be there to step in should there's a need should there be a need to step in so I'll be like ready to go that has not happened to me but I have to say that I haven't really covered a lot in my career I I have had to step in in an orchestra rehearsal kind of last minute once um last time I thought that I was here for one of the Productions at Kennedy Center so it it really is kind of a you're prepared to do whatever they need you to do and just go and do it which is actually kind of nice because then you don't have time to kind of get nervous you like oh well you just go do it and I like pride myself in in a person who's you know has just like I over prepare so I feel like if I had to do it I could do it how do you feel like we don't need to know your age but you seem relatively young how does it feel cuz I'm assuming you work with a lot of older musicians and so when you're leading an older Orchestra how is that for you is do you feel like there's any Dynamic that you have to fight or anything like that how many hours do you have ask question I I love that you just went right there uh right into it well there's been so much over the last year in particular about orchestras throughout the country so I know there's a lot going on I'll start by saying that like I definitely look younger than I am I am I am but I am older than I look okay so so um and I think that's been one of my core challenges in this career and like I've had a career as a a conservatory college professor for over a decade and so I've been conducting I've been conducting Collegiate orchestras at conservatories and I've been director of orchestras at several institutions I kind of hopped around uh been a professor Berkeley College of Music for the last 10 years and and so that is sort of I consider that like a past life in the professional space you know so in a part of me struggles with being seen as outwardly seen as young um but also in terms of I guess you know career status for lack of a better word like that also I I also feel like I'm kind of pigeon holding being like Oh well she's young and inexperienced and that is a challenge because when I stand on the podium there is sort of an assumption about what they are going to get and luckily I think that I've been lucky that the majority of the time I sort of demonstrate what I can do and then that assumption is challenged at least but there are still I still struggle with how to communicate with Orchestra members even people here at the keny center just in a casual setting yeah uh you know because the question always comes up of like oh you look so young and you're so accomplished I'm like well that would that would that that would have worked for me 10 years ago you know and like people always ask me like oh is this is this your first opera and I'm like I've been connecting Opera for the last 15 years I don't know what to say you know it's it's really hard for me to respond to those very innocent inquiries it's one thing if people ask you that but do they treat you that way do they treat you that you don't like you don't CU you look this is going right well well it's one thing you're a woman right the second is that you look young so so people tend especially in our society and right now to treat women and young women with a little lack of respect that they deserve so I I would wonder if that's something you feel as opposed to them just questioning well wow you're so young and talented versus so young and do you know what you're doing and yeah I do I definitely do think that that there's there's some of that you know I wouldn't say that it's an exorbitant amount of it I I think also I've come to learn After experiencing this for many years that part of it is self-inflicted I take partial responsibility for that because I started my career in Academia when I was actually young I I was um I started teaching at Berkeley College music when I was 26 wow and and so when I was there I had a lot of encounters with other colleagues who were faculty members and staff members where I probably mostly men right yes and I and I feel like I was unseen and I was you know and and I just felt like oh I the the result of my young brain at that point was I believed that I didn't belong and I didn't deserve to be there and I just learned to take in all of that messaging and I took in that messaging for a long time because I saw her when I was really young so I think that all of that I I've learned and and that that's a learned response for me so I'm very easily triggered by similar uh encounters with people as I got older and that's one of the things that I recognize that I have to work on in that yes people can mistaken me for being younger and but I'm responsible for how I respond to that absolutely and not allowing what is happening inside of me to dictate what I feel about myself and also what I feel about them um and what I presume Zoom about them and that's something that I've been working on you know the last few years I think women have had to find that throughout all of the Arts we're going to be treated a certain way no matter what it's just the way the world operates and so if we let that dictate how we respond then it doesn't serve us and then we can't grow and we I think especially now where we're seeing the resistance to it we have to just be strong and understand who we are and just plow ahead and just like say you know what sorry but [ __ ] off yeah yeah no I mean to and that that's that's a learned skill you know like I feel like that I'm constantly learning and building that muscle because I've done the other thing for so long and I've just allowed those um assumptions and comments to affect me without me even realizing it was affecting me you would consider yourself an empathetic person an an empath even right absolutely yeah yeah I mean I can just see the way you well the way you talked to me for example but also the way you look at the people that are working with you that there's like that you you put other people first uh is that a conductor thing do you think that's part of your job oh absolutely yeah and and you know I appreciate um you're seeing that Pete I I think that um My Philosophy as a conductor is that I believe that a conductor is a leader of the musicians and as a leader my job is to take care of the people so that they could do their best work and I and I think that that is in my experience and in my training that has not been the prevalent message of conductor training and that's not what we've seen in this sort of the traditional conductor musician relationship model first of all I don't know if the listeners know this but like the conductor is called the Maestro right like well I guess you can probably clarify more why people did not call you Maestro at rehearsals but people called Evan rogest Maestro at Tech and this is I mean I only learned about Opera 5 years ago now now I'm an expert but uh I I used air quotes but um it still always makes me feel so weird that people are referring to this other human being by no part of their actual name I mean it was like I I had a boyfriend for a long time who worked for Armani and everybody just referred to him as Mr Armani like even like he and I would be out drinking all night and he'd be like Oh Mr Armani is having me what he's just Georgio just you can say the but yeah the you know the first thing that comes to mind especially given you know your Mr Armani example is that is a status thing and and you know I think that it comes from a a positive place of respect yeah and and I think that like you know which is which is fine I mean Maestro is teacher and it's earned and yeah and it's earned and I think that that it and also the second reason I think for that is just it's tra tradition and we all know that in the music industry particularly in the classical music industry Traditions are almost impossible to break yeah and I think as someone who did not work initially in the operatic space like that Myro term is also really weird to me and like whenever I am the conductor in the room like the main conductor in the room and if somebody asks me how I would like to be uh addressed I always say Tiffany oh wow I I I always say I prefer Tiffany because I just got goosebumps that's like you're just like [ __ ] the system yeah I do understand that that calling someone Myro is is out of respect for the position but for me personally it just didn't it just doesn't land correctly that's okay if somebody else comes along and wants to be called Maestro you know and and and I I talked to a stage director friend of mine once there's no equivalent term for the stage director I'm sure you've been at at rehearsals whether it be opera or well anywhere where singers or cast members are arguing fully out loud from the stage with the director I I'm assuming this has happened right doesn't just happen in musical theater right like yeah yeah of course so does that that happened in the orchestra world you know is there ever a time where the conductor of note is just like damn it if you don't hit this down beat I'm going to [ __ ] throw my you know baton over the wall and that person's like I am doing it I am does that happen yeah well I think you know the first part of it I think is more maybe familiar in the just you know the old way of sort of conductor dictatorship conductor landscape and and I think that is definitely changing I'm not saying that it's not changing but I think that that we're so entrenched in that expectation of well the conductor is the one who knows what's right quote unquote right and they and you're not going to arue with the conductor yeah yeah and and I think that musicians have been conditioned out of speaking up for themselves and having musical ideas because from a young age they're been they've been put in these environments again and again and again and just becomes normal like I mean you know it's not not that they don't want to but they just never had a platform to do that safely and I think safely is the operative word there because you know I'm sure that there are you know maybe people who are more outspoken and musicians who are more outspoken and have talked back or just had a you know different opinion than the conductor that that sometimes is then punished and then what happens is that when it's punished then people see that and then they're like oh well that's not allowed and I can't do that and then that that reinforces that sort of conditioning of like well this is the way it has to be and then people just become really designed and their job becomes to be compliant but I also think there's a dynamic in an orchestra that's very different from being a performer on stage or being in a band or anywhere else because when you're in an orchestra you are part of a whole group of musicians that have to play together you have to play it exactly as it's written you're you have a job to do and so if a conductor Maestro is going to call you out for an error more than likely you're sort of falling out of line right it's not it's very I would imagine and maybe I'm wrong but it's very rare I would think that a conductor would really pick on someone unless they're really standing out in some way yeah absolutely someone said the only way that we know that we're doing okay is if nobody yelled at us yeah you know you know like and I think that like I love that idea because it I think it is so rampant in at least you know the the professional and the even some of the academic spaces that I have been in as a conductor you know of classical orchestral repertoire that that is so true and that like we don't as conductors we don't make a point to praise even equally as we as we point out the things that are not working correctly and and so that of course then it makes us then expect that oh well if you know no one if no one said I did anything wrong that means then then that is a sign of me being okay right and and I think that that that is something that we can do better at and it's really hard because there is this there is this sort of top- down conductor and and Ensemble relationship in this space that is just so entrenched and I am really interested and curious about how we can at least equalize that status a bit so that our musicians can can rekindle their their ability to be creative and and to have opinions and to they fulfilled and I I think that's a great question I don't know I mean I think that there is creativity in all of us and and sometimes we just get conditioned out of the will the desire or feeling safe enough to do that well it's really interesting cuz I've played with classical musicians before and there is a difference in the way that classical musicians play versus Jazz musicians and you know like the Seri string quartet that I played with there's a very different vibe with people who know how to groove versus really strict CL it's like ballerina right very rarely are you going to get a classical ballerina that can go on a Broadway stage and let loose right so it's I I feel like it's very simar I'm curious I'm curious as to what you from your perspective what do you notice about what's different they can play what's on the page but very rarely can they do anything else it's very rigid and this is I'm generalizing just from a few few classical musicians I've played with because I played with orchestras but I find that the ability to groove and to change the feel is not something that they can do easily that it's really a a the way that um a classical musician Works in an orchestra is very much what is on the page and that is it as opposed to you know people who've got Jazz and groove in their soul and that's maybe why they can't play as well with a an orchestra you know it's it it depends yeah yeah well I appreciate hearing that perspective um Nancy because I think that it it's you know maybe not that one or the other is better or worse but it's just they're just different you know and that's why that's why there are musicians that are trained and well suited for certain lanes and other musicians for another Lane and it's only when you combine those Lanes where you start to notice right you know the the just the cultural difference you know it's like taking any actor and having and throwing Shakespeare at them if they haven't been trained at Shakespeare they're not going to get they're not going to be able to speak the language maybe some intuitively can but it's really a different language and I think classical music is a different language right yeah and it's to have empathy for that mhm one of the things that we talked about uh during the little break uh in the Opera House of the canity center where I occasionally work oh I feel a little like that was just like name dropping in well it was because you know what I'm like putting together this costume for this new gig I'm starting tomorrow which is basically like a glorified uh Instagram shopping mall Christmas experience and uh I am you know putting together this like wacky wig and I've got a tuxedo that has glitter all over it and blah blah blah and I'm thinking to myself oh my God last week I wrote a show for the opera house at the Kennedy Center and worked with 61 musicians you know 87 performers and to and tomorrow I am going to be talking to Children about what wishes they're making on little disco ball so okay there you go talk about flexibility well we were talking about Tiffany during that break was creativity and do people in that pit lose their sense of creativity is it because they have job stability is it because well that they like that they like just going and doing their thing I have plenty of friends that have been in Broadway shows for more than 10 years I do not know how they do that I do not know how they can repeat the same thing and be at the same place literally go to the same theater I would be like desperate to find new routes to get to the theater I can't speak for any of the musicians you know who are in that pit and I think that to try to do that would be irresponsible absolutely um and um we weren't talking about the people in that pit we were talking about when people are in an orchestra and part of something is that what they do no I mean of of course and I think that even that in that sort of more General scenario it's I think it's hard to generalize um because I think that everyone goes into those jobs with different reason like they they have different um circumstances and different reasons for going into those jobs and you know who knows who loves it and who doesn't love it as much you know and I think that um but back back to the creativity question like I do think that um everyone is capable and wants to be creative and I I I I think very few people don't want to be creative even if they're in that situation of being sort of kind of rigid and playing the score exactly you know as it is I think that that there's certain there's certain creativity in that um using the rigidity that's on the page and being and and playing it in a way that's Musical that is interesting like I I think that you know like I shared with you Pete I think like you know some of the the definitions of creativity that I really love and one that I didn't share with you is Dorothy Parker said that creativity is a wild mind and a disciplined eye so wild mind and a disciplined eye so you can have a discipline you can have that disciplined eye for detail and accuracy but with a wild mind that container then is it has all sorts of possibilities and like I love that definition because I think that there is possibility for you know the rigidity of orchestral musicians to be that that there's room for creativity within that rigidity and and and I really think that it's my job as a conductor to help tease that creativity out and and and what I would what I would try to do at Le personally for me is I would I would say well this is the container that we're going for and this is what we're aiming to do and let's just try different ways of getting to this goal as opposed to dictating as opposed to micromanaging well you know in order to do this you have to move your foot this way and then move your foot that way and then do this and then do that you know like instead of giving it step by step I try to give them the ultimate the vision and the goal whether it's a you know let's let's think about a gloomy color here like I don't say play the clarinet in this way to get that gloomy color say let's aim for this sort of gloomy atmosphere and this is why it's because this is happening on stage and that's why it needs to be this color and then that structure without telling them how then gives them the opportunity to be creative of doing it doing whatever they need to do to get to that outcome yeah and the outcome is never technical the outcome is always a musical artistic thing and and that's always worked for me um in terms of providing that the discipline of the idea and to then giving them freedom so basically when you're at Kennedy Center you don't have that luxury because you're not the conductor sure but when you're conducting your own orchestras you have the ability to take the music wherever you want it to go is that true absolutely yeah do that yeah yeah and also like you know I think we talked about this too Pete when in our conversation that it really takes both sides to to participate in this journey you know like right if I extend my hand they had to take my hand and and I think that it's really scary for in my experience it's really scary for orchestral musicians to feel safe to take that hand when I extend it because there's just so many experiences of not being given to hand to you know to take or having been given that and then having a negative consequence that comes out of that do you feel like initially when you give people that license that they are resistant but do they do they eventually all come through and how what's the response that do people talk to you about it I think it's like 50/50 um I know I I just never know and that's one of the challenges of being a guest conductor is that I would often go to a work with a new Ensemble or or a new Orchestra and Opera Company and I would try to you know this is where I'm trying to be authentic I would try to lead as an authentic person and then sometimes I would get a really negative response in that they would be like no we just want to be told what to do just tell us what you want which I can completely understand but I wouldn't know that until like tried and then sometimes that would have negative NE negative consequences on how I'm perceived which is completely valid I I had some orchestral musicians say well you know if you appear as being not knowing exactly what you want or not being able able to articulate that it comes across it's like you're not knowing the so you can't win you can't win and but but then like I've also had experiences where the the reception was very positive you know so I think it really depends on the other party and and like that has been the challenge for me to remain authentic I guess my question to you is what is it that you want ultimately as a maestro or a conductor as Tiffany the conductor should I wrote down look at my pad where do you see yourself in 10 years yeah what like if you could have your dream your dream career what would that be I would love to be working with people who are like-minded musicians who are like-minded musicians who who are curious about a different way of collaborating with a conductor and musicians who are really interested in going deep and really finding meaning and purpose in the music that they play and not just well I'm going to show up and play these notes and that's my job you know and and and I realize that like that is just like the ideal of setting and that could be in an orchestra that could be in an opera setting it could be in a new music setting it could be I mean it could be in so many settings yeah I I think like a previous version of me if I were to have been asked that question I would have been like oh I would have chosen one of the you know the the genres right I would have been like okay well I want to do this kind of connecting and like the more that I've like lived life the more I realized that it's really about finding like-mindedness that it's really finding people who want what I want want it in the same way or similar ways or curious about the same things and and that Outlook or that um mindset has really helped me try to be a magnet for the people who are likeminded you know and like Pete I think that that's one of the reasons why we had that conversation yeah and you know you know a week ago right or whatever it was and and and like it was one of the reasons why that conversation was really so special because it was like I can kind of one hand uh the number of conversations that I've had while I've been at the keny center this is going back to me saying like I can't believe I didn't realize it wasn't you I mean I liter have no nobody in mind right who who was conducting the other two because it was just like I'm I'm not here to have conversations with people I mean even working with David Toro like we've never had that many rewrites he like really cares about kids and knew that I was very flexible I mean after the dress rehearsal we sat backstage for like another hour talking about like let's get rid of this let's move this you know which I was like they're gonna They're Gonna Hate Me stage management already hates me for and who is David Toro David Toro is so the way another great thing the Kennedy Center does or Washington National Opera does is David Toro is the assistant director I think they're called associate director in Opera uh for um uh for MC Beth but when it comes to the look in that assistant that associate gets to direct the look in specifically so they're drawing from stuff that the the you know I don't want to say main director but the director has done and David felt that he was able to play and I never had that with uh with the the other directors and I I mean I was also like never introduced like oh this is Pete he wrote the thing that you're doing yeah and I think that's what's awkward about these rooms you know like like no one is introduced to anyone and you're just expected to know who everyone is or and if you don't know then you're like less than because you should have known you know and I think that's something that like I feel often in Opera rooms well that's bad management I should have known no but it's not just there it's a lots of places right it's yeah yeah I mean I mean and it's this is not this is not directed at this particular you know institution but I think it's generally in the industry my experience is that and I think it goes back to the status thing like you know if you have status then you should know and you or or or then you privy to knowing what whatever that is that information is and if you don't know that means you don't have status and that means that you know you're you're not really that important um I'm glad I'm not insane I'm glad that there is well you are but well that's true so this is my third W project and then there was uh two video projects that were for Kennedy Center but I walked home after that great event where people are screaming enjoying rooting for the characters I mean it was a total success and then I'm done and I go back stage I I wrote this and then I'm like can I say goodbye to the people I just spent a week with and everyone's just saying goodbye like yep I'm done going home like that's it and I just job it's just a job it's a job but it's not like that in the theater it's just different in especially musical theater or improv or sketch there's so much afterwards like for lack of a better word for lack of a better word let's talk about how great we were you know no it's an experience and it's family this is a thing that people talk about with about when you're on a film when you're on a TV show when you're on a in a theater production you become family with people and it's because you are bearing your soul and I think it's very different with Opera and it's very different with ballet it's it's a very different aesthetic and it's it's much more the classical world right that's so interesting that you say that nanc yeah no I mean I I I think you know that's so interesting you said about like the family I I do think that just given the intensity of an opera production from beginning to end that there is cultivation of that intimacy that closeness between the people who are working on it so I I do feel like some of some of that exists but I can see how it's not as intense yeah or as you know as tight as in the musical theater space for example and and I think it comes back to status I I think that that that that there are clicks of people who get really M much like family but if you're not there it's like a cast system there's also something very different about people who are reading music and sitting in a pit or a big Orchestra as opposed to people on stage that are bearing their souls and are visual you know now Orchestra can be visual but they're all centered around the Maestro right and around each other whereas when you're you're performing on stage you're out there and there's a very different thing that happens to you physically absolutely yeah you were talking about like that you self-imposed a lot of these the way you uh you know dealt with people when you weren't feeling like you were uh I'm making hand movements leader my hand is up high like high on a ladder as opposed to low on a ladder that's what I'm doing that when I met Franchesca zambello for the first time last week I was like like a total like low status you know I was a frog just like and who is Franchesca Franchesca zambello is like the main go-to person for Opera at Washington National Opera I'm sure she has a better title than that um she's directed many many operas she's well known in the uh musical theater World in on Broadway because she's the one who brought the Little Mermaid to Broadway and brought this very Grand you know very different type of musical theater by reimagining the the cartoon I suppose but I was I was like hi you were in my video series thank you so it was like 3 years it was like pandemic you know like she's like oh yeah I think I remember that you know but but to me she's just like up here and I don't know why I just should have been like oh hey francheska nice to meet you I'm doing this other I I didn't talk about myself or what I'm doing there because I'm just down here yeah thank you for sharing that Pete I think that a lot of us feel that way but we are afraid to say that we feel that way because of exactly what you just shared there's just awkwardness but then there's also this sort of self- putting down that we all do just very subconsciously you know and and I think that it is really just the environment not not this particular uh company's environment but just just the the general environment of the classical music industry that that necessitates that right maybe there's this fear of like oh well if I don't stay in my place then like there could be consequences or there's a lot of fear of overstepping you know that I've I've encountered and like oh well we don't do that because you're not insert role you know I do think there is something about how we perceive ourselves in where we are in our careers versus how we perceive people who are successful that we in some ways we think they're different than us and in some ways they are because they're successful but we we all kind of do the same thing some people have maybe more natural Charisma or more opportunities or whatever it is that's made the difference between them being a success and US looking at ourselves differently and I think that's that's the thing I wrestle with as an artist because I've done a ton of my own records I've created a huge body of work and yet I haven't had the success of other artists musical artists and actors Etc does that mean I'm not good enough and I think that's the thing I it always goes back to therapy and our parents right that's I was like damn it I'm going to go there but I think it all comes back to how we perceive ourselves in our parents eyes or in the world's eyes and I wrestle with that of the moments where I'm like where I'm very confident in what I do and my talent and my abilities it doesn't mean I think I'm the best artist that ever existed but I know I've done some really I've written some great songs that I'm so proud of I sing blah blah blah blah blah but I think that sometimes when I see somebody who has the success that I want or I think they could help me I start to blabber because that confidence or whatever it is just evaporates mhm yeah it it manifests itself to me like I just feel like it's not that I feel less than I literally feel not smart which is hysterical to me because I find you to be very smart and that's that's why I joke that I'm the dumb one on the show because you know it happens all the time I mean this is like therapy and [ __ ] but like upon learning that I have ADHD as as a grown ass man you know 2 and a half years ago I it has really really helped me understand like why I struggled to understand biology or certain math classes like I just cannot think that way and I just wish I knew then but clearly I trained myself to think well you don't know this because you're not smart you're just not smart you're not smart and even like reading books reading books is always been I have to just have the right kind of book otherwise I am like what is happening this is nonlinear what and I thought oh I'm just not smart and that's why I can't read books as much as as as often as other people I don't think Pete that at least when I work with you I don't find that you have that like it doesn't show to me while we work together but I can imagine that that would be very difficult you know because you have to focus to get certain things done in theater right yeah you just have to but I think you do a really great job of it well thanks but I do go into the Kennedy Center experiences with like uh but the other side of it is reason why I do so many projects for them is because I come from a place of not knowing so that automattic it automatically makes things funny it makes things exploratory it makes you know it makes you like you know it's very it's a very tiny thing but I always want my audience at the Kennedy Center to root for the host for some reason you know because to me that's the other story otherwise it's just dactic I want to Circle back though to something you said because I think this goes back to what we were talking about with Tiffany and you and me is that the key is that we all have different talents we all have different things going on with us and the key as artists is to find our voices through all of that because that's what makes us unique and that those are the gifts that we bring as artists to the world and I think that's to me that's the most important thing and I'm thinking about you Tiffany on your journey as a maestro of finding you know where going back to where you're going to be 10 years from now finding where it is that you fit in in this crazy world of whether it's the strict world of the of the conductor versus you know the classical world and finding how to weave your voice voice in there same thing with you Pete same thing with me all artists finding the way to weave our voices into this world to do what it is we do best I think that's the journey yeah absolutely and you know I think it goes back to what Pete said about you know just thinking or what we were just all saying about like how we find ourselves wanting to change ourselves in order to satisfy to compensate for something that we think we're missing you know and like know we like we've had we've all had such unque experiences in what has created pain in us or you know or created hurt in us that we've we and and we don't even recognize that that that hurt and then we come up with ways to compensate whether it's wearing a mask or whether it's trying something a different tactic to get the thing we want to resolve that hurt and and then we do that the more that we do that the less we are ourselves and it's so easy to I think in our world where comparison is so easy so easy to compare and it's so easy to make uh associations between what you get in an outcome and your innate value it's so easy to make that connection to couple those things that that that that is something that I think we all have to learn to uncouple for ourselves so that we can see what our innate value is and then to capitalize or to preserve to protect it and then to capitalize it you know I I think that that's something that is a lifelong journey for all of us and it's the self-awareness of what's going on why we're doing certain things why do we think this way and like that is so important yet difficult to do we are going to not keep you all night but I do need to ask you about this uh so your workplace philosophy is that happier valued and more purposeful musicians make better music does making better music make happier people or does being valued make happier people wow that's a great question I have one every episode only one only one okay I think it's both well I I guess we also have to Define what better music is because better music can have many definitions better could be more accurate better could be louder better could be softer better could be more stylistically correct better could be more heartfelt better is what the says better is well yeah and and and and and if it is that then maybe it won't make people happier we all need to know that we've contributed to something and that our work is valuable even if we're just playing long notes on a cello hey thanks for checking us out links to today's guest can be found in the show notes don't forget to subscribe like us rate US and tell all your friends about arts and craft