Lisa Levy - artist, comedienne, provocateur, & self-proclaimed therapist

Lisa Levy is a true artist - comedienne, provocateur, and self-proclaimed therapist. She’s been covered (and uncovered) in print, film, and TV and curates her own gallery show. On this episode we explore artists’ vulnerabilities, comedy, The Doghouse Gallery, and Psychotherapy Live. https://www.lisalevyindustries.com/

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Lisa Levy is a conceptual artist, performer and (self-proclaimed) psychotherapist. Her art has been exhibited at art fairs, galleries and museums such as The New Museum, The Bronx Museum, SPRING/BREAK Art Fair, The Pulse Art Fair, The Brooklyn Academy of Music. Levy’s work has been  featured in publications such as the New York Times, The London Times, Artnet and Hyperallergic.

She hosts a weekly radio show: “Dr. Lisa Gives a Sh!t” where she conducts funny, emotionally revealing “psychotherapy sessions” with creative guests. ArtVoices Books released a monograph of her “The Thoughts in My Head” text paintings this year in January. Her website is: https://www.lisalevyindustries.com/ And on instagram @drlisalevysp @lisalevy_artwork

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Produced and Edited by Arts and Craft.
Theme Music: Sound Gallery by Dmitry Taras.

Transcript

Well, I love humor, humor has always been part of my artwork, my visual art, my performance art.

Comedy is a discipline that I'm learning, that I enjoy.

I don't know if a sense of humor can be learned.

It's very subjective, but I do think there's a real craft and discipline to comedy that there isn't in a lot of the other kind of performing I've done.

And there's a structure to it, and there's techniques.

So that's what I'm drawn to, is to perform with a structure, really.

She is a true artist, comedian, provocateur and self-proclaimed therapist.

She has been covered and uncovered in print, film, TV and curates her own gallery show.

Lisa Levy joins us on today's episode.

My name is Nancy Magarill.

I'm a singer, songwriter, composer, performer, graphic and web designer.

And I'm Peter Michael Marino, and I'm a writer, producer, creator, performer, and educator.

We are New York based artists you may or may not have heard of.

And we are here to introduce you to other artists you may or may not have heard of.

You represent the kind of artists that I admire so much because you do everything.

You have no limits.

Or this is how it appears to me.

I love the face that Lisa made when you said, you'll do anything.

She was sort of like, yes, and I'm sorry.

Well, you're not, you're not inhibited.

No, you know what I'm thinking about?

I'm thinking about one of my text paintings that I always try, that like just kind of sums this up.

It says, my shrink says compliments make me psychotic.

Oh, we talk about that.

It's hard to get compliments.

So yes, yes, but I love them anyway.

Okay, that's normal, kind of.

Why don't we know each other, Lisa?

Cause I look over your stuff and I'm like, this is all stuff that I would be into.

It's very weird that you don't know each other.

I know.

I don't know.

I bet you we've been in the same rooms a bunch of times and we just like haven't, no one introduced us.

Yeah.

Well, now you're introduced.

Now Nancy's introduced us.

Yeah, thank you, Nancy.

Now, finally.

I mean, it happened.

We were going to meet.

It was just, it took somebody like Nancy to put us together.

That's right.

You know, it's interesting cause I really wanted to come Friday night to the opening and I'm so bummed I can't because we have another interview before and I won't get out there in time.

But that just seems like something so up your alley.

Tell us about it.

We're going to have to go to.

Well.

It's The Doghouse Gallery, right?

So I really like comedy.

I'm an open micer and I also, you know, like art.

Like you do open mics at stand up comedy shows?

I go to open mics.

I've been doing it for a few years.

I don't try to get book shows.

I just write my material and do it.

You don't really think you're doing stand up comedy.

You're doing material.

I don't like to say I'm a stand up comic because I would assume that people were like, you know, hiring me or begging me or something.

I don't have the ego.

I should, then I would be as, yeah, I'm a stand up comic.

Okay, there we go.

I said it.

You're certainly a comedian, whether you're doing stand up routines or not.

Yeah, no, I love humor.

Humor has always been, you know, part of my artwork, my visual art, my performance art.

Comedy is a discipline that I'm learning, that I enjoy.

Do you think comedy can be learned?

I don't know if a sense of humor can be learned.

It's very subjective, but I do think there's a real craft and discipline to comedy that there isn't in a lot of the other kind of performing I've done.

And there's a structure to it and there's techniques.

So that's what I'm drawn to is to perform with a structure really.

I also think there's a level of intelligence for comedians that can't be underestimated, because I find that the best comedians are really smart.

Yeah, I mean, but they're...

I mean, the best actors are too, but...

Yeah, but you don't have to be.

You can be, you can absolutely be a comedian and not be that smart, and you can be a successful comedian.

You know, there's a range, but yeah, I do think the best comedians and the comedians that normally get really recognized are pretty smart, I would say.

Can I just finish plugging The Doghouse Gallery?

Yeah, absolutely.

So anyway, it's a gallery that I opened at the Brooklyn Comedy Collective.

And what I do is I curate, because I know the art world pretty well.

I know a lot of excellent artists that use humor in their work that don't get seen by the public enough.

And so I curate those artists into the space there, so their work gets in front of comedians.

And is it all visual artists that you're curating?

Visual artists, sometimes we add a performance element, but it's really to sort of expose visual artists to comedians and for comedians to understand more about visual art.

And we've, yeah, we've done a great job.

I mean, the gallery's been up for over a year.

We've had about 10 shows.

We're having an opening next Friday, like I said, and it's with the Brooklyn Comedy Collective.

They're really, really a cool organization.

How are the comics learning about art?

I have different kinds of artists, a lot of installation artists and stuff, a lot of text artists.

But people think of art in a very conventional way, like painting or sculpture.

So this is sort of like exposing them to other mediums that they wouldn't and other points of view.

And why just comedians and artists?

Why not musicians?

Why not other kinds of artists?

Because the artists that I'm curating specialize in being funny through their art.

Ah, okay.

So it's really, that's the mission.

They have to be funny.

Are they hard to find?

No, but I am really fussy.

I am very proud of every artist that's been in there.

The first artists we had were Jen, Katron and Paul Outlaw, who did this big hot dog in Times Square this year.

What was that?

It was like a month long installation, and it was like the size of a trailer.

I am not making this up, you can look it up.

It was put on by Times Square Arts, or a big organization.

It was considered the best project they had all year.

Anyway, I am very proud of the artists I have worked with.

How do you find them?

Are you going all over the country?

No, I mean, I find a few on Instagram, but just everywhere, art fairs, I get out.

I mean, I see art wherever I see it.

You went to Syracuse and you said, I mean, you also studied at like MOMA when you were four or something.

Yes.

Crazy like that.

You guys did research.

He did.

He is amazing at research.

I'm the lazy one.

But yeah, well, you know people.

No, you're not.

No, don't say that.

I saw you setting the whole thing up, Nancy.

Yeah.

You know, don't, don't.

I know, I know.

Okay.

We have our strengths.

When something goes wrong and it happens all the time, mostly with people who are recording artists.

I'm just going to say that.

The recording artists have the worst microphones, the worst, the cats running around, construction.

I am like, something goes wrong and I'm like, mother.

I like, I am so crazy.

And Nancy is just like, okay, let's figure it out.

And then I'm like, go, I go crazy because she's so calm.

Yeah, I see that.

I can see that.

Yeah.

We got to get you guys on my show and do some therapy.

Oh, that would be so much fun.

I actually wanted to ask you about that because I love Psychotherapy Live and I think that would be hilarious.

Tell our listeners about Psychotherapy Live.

I like how you add that S in there.

Well, it used to be funny to say listener, but now that we have five, I can say listeners.

So anyway, that's how I got started in performing.

I had never performed before.

I started doing Psychotherapy Live in my mid forties and I had, which is a long, over 20 years ago.

Wow, wow.

20 years ago, I'm very old.

So anyway, it was a conceptual art idea.

I had this idea that it would be really funny to do therapy on stage with audience volunteers.

And I rented a theater and I did two shows and I made tapes.

And then I got into the American Living Room Festival Adhere Arts Center and it went, it was like one of those weird things that just went so well and it got a lot of attention.

It was so much fun.

It was really fun.

And I got a monthly show at here and then we moved it to a bigger venue.

And then I did it on and off for years and I developed the whole practice out of it that involves, you know, well now I'm doing a radio show that I've been doing for 10 years.

Tell us about that.

How do you describe that, the radio show you do?

So I'm a self-proclaimed psychotherapist.

That's a term I use.

Yes.

And I do kind of like therapy sessions on guests.

So we do a little intake, find out who they are.

And then we talk about an issue.

You know, I get them to define an issue.

And then, you know, we try to dig into it and come to a conclusion.

I try to, I usually give out some sort of conclusion, some assessment.

Yeah.

But I have no training.

So, you know, so you can sort of like, you know, I don't have the responsibility.

That's what I like.

It's therapy without any responsibility.

Do you feel like you've actually helped people through it?

I seriously do.

I seriously.

I always felt like you nailed the problem.

Whenever I saw a show.

Thank you.

No, I really, I find people really, I find it like everybody's like a, you know, like a puzzle to me.

And I, you know, try to mention their childhoods and stuff like that.

And I had a very difficult, complicated childhood with crazy, crazy but reliable parents, which is very complicated because they seem like good parents, but they were really scary on another level.

And we lived in Manhattan, in Saunders and Town until I was eight, and we moved to suburbs, Philadelphia.

So, but yeah, my parents.

So I try to get a sense of them.

And then I try to get to see, I try to sense if they're vibing with what I'm asking and what I'm saying.

In front of an audience.

Yeah, right.

Well, when I do it live, it's in front of an audience, but the radio show is, you know, on the radio.

But they know that they're exposing themselves.

But is the radio show live?

The radio show is live.

Yeah, so it's still basically live.

You know, it's on the Radio Free Brooklyn website as well, but went afterwards.

But up there forever.

Yeah.

But I mean, it's really, it's, you know, it's just really fun.

And I think that because, you know, the sessions, I mean, I have an hour when I'm doing radio, but on a live thing, I'd have 10 minutes.

So I really try to nail it down really quickly.

And I think a lot of times, because the process of actual therapy, you have to come to the conclusions yourself.

You have to really learn a lot.

And so I just kind of bypass all the work.

I don't know.

Have you done therapy?

Oh, yes.

Oh, yes.

And do you consider yourself an empath?

I think, I think.

Listener, it looks like a no.

It looks like a no.

Let's see what you think.

No, I mean, well, that would mean that that would be a compliment.

So I don't know.

Correct.

Oh, you are.

Okay.

So no, no, I do think that I do, I am, I do understand people's pain and that I do understand that we all have pain and that it's not always obvious.

And I also like ask, I have no boundaries either.

I didn't learn any boundaries and we never ask questions in my family.

So all I do is ask questions and then I'm like, I don't know if this is appropriate.

You don't have to answer.

But I ask, I think I ask a lot of questions that are people.

I think people, people actually like it, but it could be also considered very rude.

Yeah.

But I mean, if you're coming, if they're coming to you for therapy, for Psychotherapy Live, they have to expect that.

Yeah.

But I mean, that's my day to day life.

Oh, well, yeah.

Oh, people come to you for quote unquote therapy on your daily basis as well.

No, but if you're at a party with me, you'll be forced into having therapy with me.

Because I'm going to be asking you really like, I'm going to be asking you questions because that's how I operate.

I just ask people.

You're not chit chatting.

I'm not, I can't make small talk.

Small talk, yeah.

I want to connect.

I am desperate to connect with people.

That's really where it comes from.

I so appreciate that.

And I find, I think that's why I fucking hate parties now because I feel like you can't talk to people.

Like you almost can't ask people those deep questions.

And I crave that too.

I crave really knowing people.

And I think I've sort of stopped myself from going there.

Yeah, I think, well, you know, I think we all feel like that.

I think, you know, I don't necessarily have a good time at a party or a social situation where I don't feel like there's a room for somebody to connect and I, you know, but like I went to a Christmas party and it was a lot of hipster artists.

And I remember being there and feeling really insecure.

I remember being there and thinking, God, these people are just so cool.

I'm such a dork.

They don't want to talk.

No one, and I was by myself, which I'm fine with, but I'm like, these people are like, they're too cool to talk to me.

And then I'm like, Lisa, I made myself stay because I felt like I was going to leave because I was like, Lisa, they don't give a shit.

You're fine.

Don't put yourself, don't like make this about like, you're not good enough.

And so I wound up staying and then like, eventually connecting with a few people.

But I think, I think it's hard.

I think like, there's a lot of situations where people aren't really, you know, you if you're around a lot of cool people, they're not necessarily going to be open to connecting with you.

Cause they're-

What makes them cool?

They're-

Yeah.

What makes them cool?

Their name is on in Rolling Stone.

Like what makes them cool?

No, I think, I actually think that what you, the connection with humans has a lot to do with ego.

One's sense of oneself.

And I think that if you are holding on to a certain sense of yourself, I think you're going to be a little less open.

And I think if you are conscious, self-conscious about being a certain way or not being made fun of or not whatever, it's going to be, you're going to have a lot more defense.

You know what I mean?

That's the sort of conundrum of like, you think of these people as being cool, but what's actually really cool is people who can talk, who actually don't have that pretense and that you can just have a conversation with.

Cause that's actually what's really cool.

Like, I so appreciate people who don't have that icy, whatever vibe it is, where they just can't talk to you because they're too cool or whatever the fuck it is, you know?

Yeah, or they're like, they want to be respected for, like a lot of times, sometimes I'll be out and like, I'll be talking to somebody and I feel like they think I should know who they are and I don't.

Oh, same.

That happens all the time.

Yeah.

I have social anxiety and I'm working on it.

But my reason for having a hesitation about going to a party is, I feel like I'm going to be bored.

Really?

That's projection, right?

That's totally projection.

That's just me, like, I'm going to be boring because I'm not going to want to talk about myself.

Oh, you're going to be boring or you're going to be bored?

Both.

You said two different things.

I'm going to be bored and that is projection because I feel like I'm boring because as you know, Nancy, I don't like talking about what I do or myself.

But you are anything but boring.

I feel like I understand that.

Absolutely.

I wouldn't be on this podcast if I wasn't boring.

But I'm just saying it's something I've really been trying to understand lately.

Okay.

Can I do it?

Can I say something?

Please, doctor.

From the doctor Lisa point of view here?

Yes.

Okay.

Well, first of all, Pete, even though I should have met you like a billion years ago, I would say that like you're a big personality.

Am I right, Nancy?

Correct.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

So you're a big personality.

That doesn't say boring to me.

But I'm wondering where you're getting the idea of boring because that feels, here I am.

This is what I get.

That's why we got you here.

We didn't want to introduce you to other people.

We need to figure out what the fuck is wrong with us.

Why do we need therapy?

Okay.

Well, like you, I'm wondering if boring sounds a little like a defense.

Combine with the idea that you don't like talking about yourself, or you don't want to talk about yourself, which also makes me wonder if, you know, I have so much respect for you to say that you don't want to be talking about, you don't like talking about yourself.

But I think sometimes when we're in a situation where we're not talking about ourselves, or we don't get a chance to talk about ourselves, it's boring.

We like to some degree, I don't know exactly what you mean when you say you don't like talking about yourself.

Maybe, you know, maybe, I don't know.

I don't know what you mean exactly.

I want to say something else.

This is the worst doctor I've ever met.

But hold on.

I want to let Dr.

Nancy sneak in a little bit here.

I actually think also, Pete, with you, that sometimes if you're not able to be one of your characters, which makes you come so alive and the work you do, then maybe you feel a little like you have nothing to hide.

But the characters are almost something you can hide behind.

Am I getting too dark?

No, but I've become...

Look, I'm not even doing the show that I wrote and created on Saturday.

Someone else is doing it.

I'm finding the older I get, the less I want to be out there doing my thing.

But yes, being a character helps immensely.

This is very deep.

Go ahead.

See, this is what I'm saying.

It's so cool, though.

I was just talking yesterday to somebody about weight, time and space work, where you, I don't know if you guys know what that is, but you put different weights, different speeds, character work that you do to create characters, because I was watching Hitman the other day and the guy who plays the lead plays two different characters and the way he switches, it's fascinating.

He's so brilliant at it, because you believe he's those two different people.

And my friend said to me, and I can't remember who it was, but said to me, she's like, you know what, I want to do that, because we went to Theatre Conservatory together.

She's like, I want to take that into the studio with me.

And I want to put on some of that to give myself more confidence when I'm in the studio working with all the other people around me, because sometimes I feel really small when I'm in there.

I want to try this the next time I go to a party, right?

Oh, great.

Is trying to take on...

But I do this for auditions and things like that.

It's sort of like, or when you're nervous before a show, I'll do stuff like that just to get myself out of that, because that changes you when you do that kind of work.

And I feel like maybe that's something to try at a party.

It would be really fun to just take that on and be someone else at a party for a second.

I was just sharing this with somebody yesterday that...

So I had a one person show that I did for a very, very long time all around the world about my own, about a real experience.

It's a comedy.

Was this a Desperately Seeking the Exit?

Yeah, Desperately Seeking the Exit.

And I was doing the Edinburgh Festival Fringe, which is like, you're doing the same show, same time every day for a month.

And I called my director, who had a ton of experience in Fringe festivals and with actors and I said, I can't do it all the time.

I just can't, I feel like I'm inauthentic.

I feel like I don't like my own story, like all this stuff.

And he said, Pete, you just got to snap into the character of Peter Michael Marino.

You just got to be the character of Peter Michael Marino.

And I was like, oh, that actually makes it so easy.

It was so easy.

But see, again, like after the show, I don't want to talk to people.

I don't want to go.

Look, when I went to see Bill Timoney in Our Town, I was just like, hi, I'm not bothering you, bye.

Like I don't want to stick around.

It's not a great thing when you're a theater artist because people love to talk.

Yeah, but I think you can carry that in to keep it going until you get home or until you're by yourself.

I want to ask you, Lisa, if you feel like when you're doing some of the work that you're doing, like for example, when you're naked on TV or for the, I don't know if it was on TV.

It wasn't on TV.

I was naked.

You look so confused.

I think I've been naked on several performances, but I think what you're talking about is I did a performance in an art gallery where I was naked for two days sitting on a toilet with another toilet in front of me and people could come in.

It was called The Artist is Humbly Present and I was making fun of the Marino Bromovic project.

So people would come in and sit across from me and I was naked on a toilet and they would be on a toilet.

Were you making fun of it?

It's a send up.

It's a send up.

It wasn't a send up.

Like a parody or an homage.

It sounds like it's actually an homage.

What I was trying to say is that I felt that Marina in that particular instance, and a lot of art is in general, it wasn't really just about her, but it was about the pretentiousness of art.

Because I felt like in that situation, she was wearing, like I was naked on a toilet.

She was practically in MoMA in like a robe in front of everybody in the main atrium.

And I felt that like she was like a god or some kind of entity.

And I felt that wasn't like a way to connect with people.

And so that's what I was...

But it wasn't really about her particularly, it was just about this particular...

It was just that statement that I was trying to make.

So did people come and sit on the toilet and talk to you?

I didn't talk, she didn't talk, so I didn't talk.

Oh, that's a great twist.

What did you do when you had to go to the bathroom?

That's what...

Do you know that that is the most searched question about Marina Bramavick?

And there were like discussions and diagrams, whether she had like a bucket underneath or something like that.

Well, you know, I mean, if I really had to go to the bathroom, I didn't, you know, I mean, I would go.

I would like take a break and go.

So you didn't use the toilet that was there.

It wasn't, it wasn't hooked up.

Let's put it that way.

It wasn't hooked up.

There was no toilet paper anyway.

I could never do that.

There was no way I could sit that long without having to go.

You would.

If you had to go, you would say, I'm taking a break.

Marina probably wouldn't, but I would.

You can really tell Lisa that you do a podcast because as soon as someone's lips open, you stop, you stop talking.

We're always trying to not over talk and you're like the best guest at not over talking and I'm the worst host.

Oh really?

Because I'm always like, what you said?

No, I've been accused of it.

I was accused of it.

That's why I'm careful about it because I've been told that I do that.

Oh good, I'm getting better.

That's good.

We're hearing some banging in the background.

Oh yeah, you're hearing the heat, which we finally have.

Do you know that like for over a week now, we haven't had heat on and off?

What?

Yeah, it's been torturous.

Not with this weather.

Yeah, no.

So I'm glad we have a little banging.

Are you guys in a, what kind of building are you in?

We're in a loft.

We're in a cliche loft.

Are you stabilized or are you a rent-stabilizer?

Yeah.

Yeah, but they're converting it to, it's one of those CFO legal, we're in like, I mean, we've lived here since 2011, but then the building got sold a couple of years ago and now they have to put in an elevator and redo the ceiling.

So there's lawyer, it's one of those situations.

I went through all of that.

Me too.

My landlord's trying to evict a bunch of people right now.

We were bought in 2011 around the same time.

We've been in court, there's all, it's crazy, the stuff that they try.

Living in New York, I have, I mean, I've been here almost my whole life and there's never been like a normal situation.

So let's talk about that as artists living in New York.

We're all in, the three of us are in rent stabilized buildings.

We understand how important that is, because without it, we would not stay, we would not be able to stay in the city.

And artists are the heart of the city.

It's so vital to the health of this city.

Now, a lot of it's had to move out to Brooklyn over the years because Manhattan's become so expensive.

But what are the different places you've lived at in the city besides Chelsea?

So I've lived, I moved to, when I moved to the city in 78, I lived in on 11th street between third and fourth.

I've lived on Hudson Street with two different men, two different periods, the 80s and then-

Two different times, okay.

90, yeah.

I've lived on, I owned an apartment on 9th street in Broadway for a while, 450 square feet.

I've lived a lot of places.

But most of my life, I wasn't making a living as an artist, I was working in corporate America.

You have worked for the man at some point in your illustrious career.

At an ad agency, right?

Yes.

Is that how you met Phil?

Yes, through an ad agency, right.

So I've had plenty of struggles, but yeah, I've never really lived in luxury, but I always have health insurance and a paycheck.

I've tried to, not always, but I've tried to maintain that because I am neurotic, and I wish I had the balls to cobble together a living, but I never did.

Well, you're an independent artist.

How do you have health insurance?

Well, now I have Social Security and Medicare, but also I will, you know, I am married to somebody who also worked in advertising, and I don't, I mean, I'm not going to lie.

I don't have to pay the rent.

I don't pay the rent.

I am living off of a man.

Well.

And you didn't want to get married.

I did not want to get married.

Did you see the documentary?

We just posted it.

Oh, I haven't seen it yet.

Tell us about that.

So anyway, my husband, we got married.

He's also a phenomenal artist.

He's a wonderful photographer.

He's a really good photographer.

Another one we should have on the show.

Anyway, I met him in 98.

We got married in 2010.

He really wanted to get married.

I did not want to get married.

He asked me to get married after eight years.

We were engaged for five.

And then a friend of mine, who's a really great filmmaker, a reality TV film guy, worked on, has worked with RuPaul a bunch of times.

Spencer Schille was in town for a job in New York City for three months before the wedding.

And so he made a documentary about like how I was feeling about not wanting to get married and why.

And I think the conclusion you would get out of the film is that I was afraid that if I wasn't like an independent woman, it was gonna like fuck with my art, fuck with my sense of myself.

Now, did it fuck with your art or did it make it better?

Did it make any changes at all?

Do you think it had any impact?

I do and I think I've been very lucky because I sort of see Phil, like I see my art as my children, all my creative projects as my children.

I mean, I'm a stepmother, but because that's really what I'm making and caring for, and that's the direction, that's what focuses my life, is my art projects.

And I see Phil kind of like the dad, because even when the first, when I first started doing psychotherapy, I had this big couch, a shrink couch and everything.

Phil, when I have an installation, I've got Phil and Phil has been, I mean, it's not just that he's supportive, he really makes things happen.

And he has skills that I don't have, that I am the beneficiary of.

I also think, you know, relationships make you grow as a person.

Yeah.

And, you know, I mean, I think like Phil and I give each other a lot of room.

And also like when he's doing an art project, I don't exist for him.

So I think, you know, I think we're both artists and it's okay.

I don't know.

I mean, what I do say and I tell him this, we do not put enough effort into our relationship.

We don't, we don't go on enough like trips together.

We're working.

We work all the time.

He's at a studio.

We don't put enough effort into our relationship.

Although we do a lot of things together, but.

Do you feel like you need to do that now?

Or is it just that we don't put effort into it, but we still have this amazing connection?

Like, what would change if you did?

I'm not sure, you know, and I'm not sure.

Like, it's more about that.

I think it's better to, like, I, I, this is my insecurity.

I need, this is my mission, guys.

I need Phil to admit that we're not putting enough effort into the relationship because I'm conscious of it.

And I need to know that he's, I need him to know that we're ignoring each other.

Are you really ignoring, like I said, when he's working and he, you said, you're not even, you don't exist while he's working.

I think that's how you put it.

What does that make you feel?

Well, I mean, when he has a really intense project, he's just very black and white about it.

I'm, I'm more, I'm bad too, but just not as like, I can't compartmentalize that way.

It's annoying and it feels really bad.

And I feel like he really is just not thinking about me at all.

And it can go on for months sometimes.

And in my own mind, I know it's just like, that's how he works and work is important to me and work is important to him.

It's just that he's very black and white about it.

You know, like, more that, you know, but I don't, he's less sensitive about it than I am.

Like, ignore it.

I think it's-

A guy thing?

Yeah, no, I think it's a thing that, this is the thing about art.

When you, all of us probably experience this, when you're creating, it is, it possesses you.

There's something about when you come up with whatever project it is, that it just becomes encompassing, all encompassing.

Well, like your kid.

Well, absolutely.

And so I think that, and I think the difference between men and women, if I can say this-

Good luck.

Is that we can get obsessed with our work, but when you're in love, when you've got someone, you still want to know that that love is, you always want to feel that love.

And I think that men can get involved in their projects.

And there's almost like they, I understand what you're saying about, you feel like you don't exist.

It's like they can almost forget you.

Literally.

You know that, right.

But you know that they're not forgetting you.

Yes.

It's just that they don't need to hold on like we do in that way.

I don't know.

Yeah.

I mean, I think, I mean, I think that Phil is, you know, he's, I think there's, I think he becomes like, it gets to the point where it's really inconsiderate sometimes.

But I also feel that because I've always had it, like Phil's had an easier process coming to art later and also because he, his job wasn't as a creative person.

I feel like that I've had to integrate my art into my life.

I've been forced to because I've had to do it outside of a job as an art director or associate creative director in advertising.

And so I feel like resentful because I feel like I've learned how to integrate it more and then still keep all the balls in the air.

Whereas like I feel like it's a little, I feel like it's a little indulgent.

That's me.

That's my criticism.

And that's my love language.

I like to tell people my love language is criticism.

Oh, boy.

I think that's also Jewish.

I think so too.

You're like so, I mean, I'm assuming Phil knows you talk about your relationship publicly like you're doing right now to us.

Yeah, I don't really talk about it a lot, but I don't think...

I'm glad we got it off your chest then.

Do I need to edit it out?

No, I think, I don't think I'm saying anything that he's not aware of also.

Yeah, I mean, he's a guy.

He's aware of all the things you're saying, because he is a guy, so he might not be...

No, we've had enough couples therapy at this point.

Oh, okay, okay.

Phil and I were also in group therapy for a long time.

When he wanted to get...

I was in a woman's, a group...

It happened to be all women of group therapy.

There were like five women.

And Phil joined the group because he really wanted to get married to me.

Oh, wow.

So we were all in the same group for years.

Oh my gosh.

Yeah, it was crazy.

Wow.

Oh, that's so cool.

That's pretty brave of him.

You're talking to us like I imagine folks open up and talk to you when you're doing your...

I don't want to call it a show.

It's not a show.

Therapy, fake therapy.

Well, it's an experience.

No, but you know what?

This is how I relate.

This is the whole...

This is my whole problem.

I have no boundaries.

No.

It's not a problem.

I think it's wonderful.

Yeah, I think it's great, too.

I feel like...

But it freaks.

I don't think everybody...

I don't think everyone...

It's not for...

I'm not for everyone.

Amen.

Well, no one is.

But I think this is the heart of being an artist.

And I think it's why your art is so vast, is because you are able to talk and deal with everything.

And I think it makes it really exciting because you're not holding anything in.

Not that people...

I think there are people who can hold a lot in, and all of a sudden they create this art that says it all.

But I think it really is...

I think it's part of the artist's experience.

We all deal with all of these emotions inside of us and how we explore it, whether we talk about it, whether we only do it in our art, I think is really telling about the artist.

Yeah, I think...

Well, I also think showing vulnerability is so underrated and so important.

It's your brand.

It's what your show is.

It's also like how we connect because we're all really vulnerable and we try to hide it.

We try to put on characters.

We all try to hide it.

And I think that for better or for worse, I'm just...

I'm fucking vulnerable.

Hey, guys.

You are.

I'm vulnerable.

You don't want to hear about it, maybe, but you know...

I think vulnerability is really important.

I think regardless of whether you're an artist or not, I actually think more vulnerability is really necessary.

Make vulnerability sexy again.

That would be a good way to do that.

So you can have that one.

That is how people connect.

They connect through vulnerability.

Let me ask.

This is so prescient there.

I said it.

I got to use the word prescient today.

That's a good word.

Thank you.

And you pronounced it correctly, which most people don't.

So a lot of my work comes from the audience.

Like I'm at the point where I literally just show up and the audience does all the work.

That's basically where I'm headed as an artist, right?

Wow.

Yeah.

And this new piece that I'm developing is very commercial.

Well, we hope.

Yeah.

But it involves, right?

I do that.

Why not?

I'm just going to say it like, guys, I'm writing something that like is for straight people and it's for people in their 40s and it's for people from New Jersey.

That's who I'm writing for.

Good for you.

We need that too.

It's about time I finally learned.

But it involves people sharing truths about themselves.

So they've already signed up for this.

They think they're at a karaoke show and they're just going to be singing songs.

But part of the fabric that I've woven is that in order for mankind to survive or humankind to survive, X amount of people need to reveal a truth.

My instinct is from other shows I've done, people will blow you away with what they admit in front of a room full of a hundred strangers, or a hundred and fifty, hopefully.

Yeah, sometimes.

What does that happen with you, with your show, that you're just amazed that people are just so vulnerable and so transparent?

Yeah, a lot of times.

I mean, you know, one time on stage, some guy talked about admitting, I think admitted something about his mother.

I can't remember exactly.

I think it was like his father killed his mother or something like that.

Oh my God.

It was really crazy.

Everybody was like, and so it put the room on, it just silenced the room.

And I just went, that is incredible.

OK, people, that we are going to like give you a round.

Let's give him a round of applause for Cher.

You know, like we support you.

We support you.

That's what I do.

But I often think that a lot of times people do admit like things, but they're not necessarily sensational.

Right.

The things that I notice are, and I don't even remember my shows very well.

I don't remember it.

I'm in it.

I don't remember it.

I hear you.

Whatever.

But I think that what I look for is when somebody like, I call it a light bulb goes off where they like, I never thought of that.

When somebody says, I never thought about that, that's what I'm trying to get to.

Yeah.

That's exciting.

It is exciting, but it can be very small.

It can be small.

It can feel, they can feel it, but it doesn't have to be elaborate.

When people came to the live version of this on stage, if I can say that, they knew the name of the show.

They knew what they were going to.

How did you get people to come up and talk to you?

What was the mathematics of that process?

I would just ask.

You didn't screen anybody.

You just asked.

No.

I mean...

Did you ever have...

No.

Just like total, like this tough crowd.

No one is raising their hand.

No one is showing any signs of...

There would be those moments for sure.

And I know over the course of the show, there might have been...

I don't know.

I don't remember like not doing a show because no one came up.

You know, it's funny because what would happen is like the first person, that would be rough.

I usually did three people.

So the first person, then I'd get another person.

Then by the third person, everybody wanted to go up.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because the people who are buying a ticket to come to this event, right?

They are, I'm assuming the biggest draw is you, right?

You got to see this chick, Lisa Levy.

She's plays this character, but it's really her.

That's why I went.

But she's hilarious and she's likable and all that.

Like, that's a big, I mean, that's actually a big gamble, right?

If you're spending money on a ticket and going off the night, like, okay, I guess I'll trust that this person, who I don't know, is going to be entertaining.

Oh, here's the other thing.

She brings people up from the, oh, I'm not going to that.

So, well, you're going to get people that want to do that.

That's the thing, is like, that it then became a show, not just about Lisa, Dr.

Lisa, but it became a show about other human beings.

And people recognizing the struggles or the good stuff with this other person who's on stage with you, and they leave that show feeling nourished.

They feel like they have had some kind of breakthrough.

Or the fact that they witnessed it, and that's why they tell other people to go the next week.

Is that how that works?

Hopefully.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's really interesting.

But it works on two levels.

It's not solely, you got to see this performer, this artist.

Right.

Well, you have to remember.

You got to see this experience.

When I first started doing it, I had no performance experience whatsoever.

That probably was a great thing.

Well, I don't know.

People's, I guess probably.

It makes you authentic.

Well, I mean, I really had to, I was, you know, I mean, I couldn't do it without the audience, you know, without a job to do on stage.

But I think also in the marketing of the show, I did have to be pretty clear that, you know, it's willing volunteers.

I was very clear about that.

And I really did not.

That's really smart.

Yeah, I did not coerce people.

And I was always very, and I always am, I'm very, you know, I really am supportive, no matter what.

So, I mean, that's what's important to me.

People feel safe with you.

People feel safe with you.

Well, it's what's important to me.

And I think they know that.

I've had celebrities, or I have had videos of people I could have, I could have exploited a lot more than I have.

Let me tell you that.

You know what also I think is key?

You never were doing it for the sake of comedy.

It never felt like you were doing it to be funny and make fun of anyone.

It was actually serious therapy, but it was funny because of you, because of your outlook.

And I think that there's that's sort of where it sort of swam around, you know, because we were getting a sense of you, but also this person and their frailties, vulnerabilities.

And that's what made it, I think, so special.

Oh, thank you.

I want to just suggest real quick that your next project is Lisa and Phil talk to each other, and an audience comes to watch you guys talk, having not talked for a week.

Okay, that would be really funny.

It's a dinner show.

It's a dinner theater show.

No, not with...

See, that's the whole thing.

Phil is not a performer.

He does not...

I mean, he's a good person.

You weren't a performer either.

No, Phil would never do that.

Or I...

That wouldn't be the...

We wouldn't do that.

Phil doesn't even like when I perform.

Is he always on the edge of his seat, worried?

He's worried.

In the last comedy, I did a comedy show.

I was on a lineup.

I did a comedy show.

And he came and he said to me afterwards, you really like making people uncomfortable, don't you?

Oh.

And did you laugh evil?

Did you have an evil laugh like that?

I mean, what?

No, you know, I was, I mean, Phil's great.

I'm just like, oh, he's so uptight.

Like, Phil's a really sensible guy.

And I need somebody like that.

Yeah.

Right.

You know, he's a sensible guy.

He bought me long-term health care when, before we were married.

That's the kind of guy that I am.

Wow, that's smart.

Cause that's a long time ago that you, and anyone who gets that now, it's not the same.

Yeah.

So that's one of the things I particularly love about Phil.

He actually got himself long-term health care for you.

Kind of, but.

Oh, that's sweet.

It was.

Lisa, thank you.

It is.

Cause it's-

Yeah.

Oh, thank you.

Thank you for sharing and thank you for getting people to open up.

And thank you for being an artist who does lots of things.

Cause I think artists need to hear that it's okay to be like that.

Really quickly though, tell everybody where your book is on sale.

Oh, yeah.

We didn't talk about your book.

I just have this book out now.

It just came out.

It's called Lisa Levy, The Thoughts in My Head.

And it's a hundred of my text paintings done over a period of 10 years.

And you can get it wherever books you get books.

And you can go to my website, which is Lisa Levy Industries.

And it's L-E-V-Y.

That's right.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you so much.

I'm so glad we had you.

We're going to schedule having you guys come on my show soon.

Oh, that would be so great.

We'll reach out.

Hey, thanks for checking us out.

Links to today's guests can be found in the show notes.

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